His argument is a calorie is a calorie. My argument is that this isn’t the case at all. Human energy metabolism is controlled by hormones, specifically insulin and leptin as the main drivers. These are affected by several factors, a main one is dietary carbs.
To: Boyd Swinburn
Subject: Re: papers
GS=Grant Schofield, BS=Boyd Swinburn, GS=Gnant second response
GS: The debate then in the discussion [of your Pima Indian paper] isn’t around the fact that RQ is modifiable by macronutrient composition, but that fat mass drives RQ?
BS: I THINK RQ IS AFFECTED BY MANY THINGS AND ACUTELY OF COURSE IT IS THE NUTRIENT LOAD AND NUTRIENT MIX. CHRONICALLY, AS I REMEMBER, IT IS MAINLY ENERGY BALANCE AND FAT MASS
GS: Given that industrial food [or Std American] diets are moderate carb at least, many who eat them are hyperinsulinemic most of the day. What I am arguing is that RQ is mostly to a point which turns off lypolysis, most of the time. Fasting insulin may be a different story, but less important because of the continual high insulin from carb ingestion. Sugar probably provides a mechanism to increase insulin resistance further.
GS: I maintain that eating sufficiently low dietary carbs and high fat reduces RQ.
BS: YES SURE
GS: LCHF is known to be more effective for weight loss maintenance in free living trials ad lib, than calorie restricted low fat diets.
BS: GENERALLY, ALL DIETS WORK TO REDUCE WEIGHT IF THE RULES OF THE DIET ARE ABLE TO BE FOLLOWED AND IF FOLLOWED ARE HYPOCALORIC. ALL DIETS ALSO SHOW THE SAME RETURN TO PREVIOUS WEIGHT (METABOLIC BRAKES ON WEIGHT LOSS PLUS RETURN TO THE OBESOGENIC ENVIRONMENT AND OLD HABITS). THE ONLY ‘METABOLIC’ EFFECT THAT I AM CONVINCED OF IS THE EFFECT OF PROTEIN ON SATIATION.
YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT IMPLYING METABOLIC MECHANISMS FROM AN EDUCATIONAL INTERVENTION, I THINK. THE STUDY THAT WAS INFLUENTIAL FOR ME WAS THE KENDALL STUDY OF 11 WEEKS OF SURREPTITIOUS HIGH FAT V HIGH CHO.
KENDALL AM J CLIN NUTR 1991 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?db=m&form=6&dopt=r&uid=2021123
GS: Here’s what these guys did and found “Thirteen females were randomly assigned to either a low-fat diet (20-25% of calories as fat) or a control diet (35-40% fat) for 11 weeks. After a 7-wk washout period, the conditions were reversed for another 11 weeks. Energy intake on the low-fat diet gradually increased by 0.092 kJ/wk, resulting in a total caloric compensation of 35% by the end of the 11-wk treatment period. This failure to compensate calorically on the low-fat diet resulted in a deficit of 1.22 kJ/d and a weight loss of 2.5 kg in 11 weeks, twice the amount of weight lost on the control diet. These results demonstrate that body weight can be lost merely by reducing the fat content of the diet without the need to voluntarily restrict food intake.”
Yes, caloric deficit and short term weight loss on a low fat diet is seen. Plenty of research on that. Yes, eventually most people return to previous weights, but this is in an environment which is overrun by dietary carbs and processed ones at that. The problem is over-exposure to food as you say it is the processed carbs that are the problem in the food though not the fat.
The Kendall paper pits a low fat diet against a moderate fat.moderate carb diet which is nothing to do with a LCHF diet.
Good points though about problems with diet and weight loss research. Educational lead programs – where we tell them what to do and some lose weight – is how much research is conducted. Of course, we don’t understand the metabolic effects of it clearly because people vary in their application and adherence. We could do more metabolic ward, respiratory chamber diet studies. We will never get the funding to do those in my country though, at least not through our Health Research Council, which funds a max of $1.2 million for a three year project, much of which is kept centrally by university administration as the salary overheads are 100%.
On the other hand, public health recommendations should be based on what people will do and find sustainable, so we do need to find the best weight loss and metabolic health programs people can actually follow. LCHF diets offer more promise than other regimes at this point. The 18+ RCTs to date show better weight loss, better cardio-metabolic parameter improvements, and better adherence wins in the short and medium term. I agree, long term outcomes are a problem for all diets, mostly because of the obesogenic environment. We all agree on that, but we don’t agree on what that actually is. I say it’s the processed carbs, you say its just food in general.
I’d also put forward a hypothesis that all diets work because they sufficiently lower serum insulin allowing lipolysis. You said I would lose weight on a hypocaloric high CHO/sugar diet in a previous conversation. Would I? I probably would as I am insulin sensitive. Would someone who isn’t?
GS: The hypothesis is that different macronutrient’s compositions have different metabolic effects, mainly through stimulating insulin more or less. Insulin directly affects RQ.
BS: INSULIN DOES ENORMOUSLY AFFECT RQ. MACRONUTRIENT COMPOSITION HAS A LOT OF DIFFERENTIAL METABOLIC EFFECTS ON LIPIDS AND HORMONES ETC. BUT FOR MACRONUTRIENT COMPOSITION TO AFFECT ENERGY BALANCE, IT NEEDS TO AFFECT EI OR EE – THE FACT THAT IT AFFECTS FFA FLUX, RQ ETC IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. THERE ARE CLEAR MECHANISMS FOR HIGH FAT INCREASING EI THROUGH ENERGY DENSITY AND IT SLIPPING ‘UNDER THE ENERGY-BALANCE DETECTION RADAR’. ALSO, HIGH CHO DIETS FROM REAL FOODS ARE BULKY AND TEND TO REDUCE EI. IN ISOCALORIC STUDIES I DID IN METABOLIC WARDS IN OVERWEIGHT/OBESE PEOPLE, GETTING THEM TO FORCE DOWN ENOUGH FOOD ON A HIGH CHO (REAL FOOD, HIGH FIBRE) DIET TO KEEP THEM ISOCALORIC WAS HARD WORK.
GS: My understanding is that RQ has effects on lipolysis and fat storage. High RQ makes you store dietary carbs as fat and fat as fat if there is no high energy flux. All the research on the other clear mechanisms are in the context of a modern at least moderate carb diet. Using a LCHF approach, these mechanisms may not act the same way. In other words, when RQ is low because carbs are low you won’t store fat as easily, as the main mechanism isn’t activated. That’s the practical and experimental experience of people exposed to these (LCHF) regimes.
A couple of other points we discussed…
GS 1: Every low carb high fat trial [18 RCTs] shows favourable improvements in every CVD risk factor with big increases in saturated fat intake. That is not consistent with saturated fat being an important risk factor. There’s quite a bit published on this.
BS: IT HAS BEEN A WHILE SINCE I LOOKED AT ALL THIS STUFF. I UNDERSTAND THAT HIGH SIMPLE CHO HAS NEGATIVE EFFECTS ON TRIGLYCERIDES AND HDL AND THAT HIGH SAT FAT HAS A NEGATIVE EFFECT ON LDL. I BET THERE ARE A SERIOUS NUMBER OF META-ANALYSES OR POOLED ANALYSES ON THIS
GS: Yes the debate has moved on I think. All correct above, the fuller understanding of LDL particle size and number has increased our understanding of how this affects CVD risk. I’m not convinced that the saturated fat debate has done any public good and may have caused harm. There are prospective meta-analyses (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2824152) and experimental studies showing the lack of evidence for saturated fat harm.
You will be aware of the main mechanism identified in CVD and other metabolic disorders. It’s chronic inflammation. I contend that hyperinsulinemia is inflammatory. A high CHO diet is therefore inflammatory.
GS 2: The assumption that every calorie has the same metabolic effect I think should be under scrutiny.
BS: I DON’T THINK ANYONE SAYS THAT MACRONUTRIENT COMPOSITION DOES NOT INFLUENCE METABOLISM (IN ITS BROAD SENSE). THE QUESTION NEEDS TO BE TIGHTER – IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ENERGY BALANCE AS THE METABOLIC EFFECT, THEN YOU NEED TO DO SURREPTITIOUS ALTERATIONS TO REMOVE THE COGNITIVE/KNOWLEDGE EFFECTS.
GS: This sounds like you are saying we can only feed people either liquid bland meals, or meals identical in look and feel but with different macronutrient compositions, before you would take the results seriously. Surely we overcome almost all of your problems with eating actual food using RCT protocols or, in my experience, subjects as their own controls in ABAC. Or crossover designs? Your method lacks validity of being actual food, which of course is what humans usually eat. It’s not translatable into public policy or anything else really.
You should also really have a look at a more recent paper out of your previous NIH lab using the same Pima Indians and others. They show how carb burners eat more and gain more weight than fat burners. See here.
GS: Different macronutrients affect humans differently and the magnitude of effects varies depending on total meal composition and genetic and metabolic history.
BS: THIS IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION AGAIN – WITH EVERYTHING THAT AFFECTS A GROUP AS A WHOLE THERE IS HETEROGENEITY IN RESPONSE. THIS HETEROGENEITY INTERESTS SOME PEOPLE AND THOSE ARE THEIR RESEARCH QUESTIONS? THIS IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE AVERAGE AFFECT ON A GROUP OR POPULATION
GS: We should be interested in how the responders and non-responders differ in experimental trials. After all, some people stay healthy metabolically on an industrial food diet and others suffer. What is it about those who suffer? That’s where the term carbohydrate intolerance came from and we should take that term and investigation of it seriously.
GS 3: Do you recall the paper regarding weight loss in low fat v high fat? I predict in advance, if indeed low fat had better weight loss, then the high fat was not low carb (i.e. at least under 100g per day, and hopefully under 50g CHO/day). If it was, I would have more serious food for thought. What we are talking about is reducing massively the area under the daily insulin curve.
BS: CHECK IT OUT ABOVE. INSULIN IS A GREAT HORMONE WITH ITS FINGERS IN SO MANY METABOLIC PIES, BUT I THINK TOO MANY PEOPLE ATTRIBUTE TOO MUCH TO IT IN RELATION TO ENERGY BALANCE. ONLY SMALL RISES IN INSULIN ARE ENOUGH TO TURN OFF LIPOLYSIS, MORE IS NEEDED TO TURN OFF GLUCONEOGENSIS, MORE FOR GLUCOSE TRANSPORT INTO THE CELL AND EVEN MORE FOR DE NOVO LIPOGENESIS.
I agree, the problem is most people on a high carb diet are hyperinsulinemic the whole day.
SORRY TO QUOTE ALL THIS OLD STUFF BUT SEE KEVIN ACHESON’S PAPER AM J CLIN NUTR 1987http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?db=m&form=6&dopt=r&uid=3799507
GS: As I expected, the Kendall paper wasn’t LCHF so isn’t relevant. The Acheson paper shows that subjects had a highly insulinemic response to dextrose – obese and non-obese alike. They showed very little de novo lipogenesis, even with large carb loads. OK. But, insulin still dials down lipolysis and promotes fat storage. De novo lipogenesis might only be a minor part in this. But that doesn’t mean insulin doesn’t promote weight gain through modifying energy metabolism, storage, and output.
Look, when insulin is raised a bit you turn off lipolysis and you store any fat floating around. That is exactly what happens in the standard industrial moderate carb moderate fat diet. Sugar through fructose increases insulin resistance. Other inflammation sets in making the problem worse. Leptin gets blocked. Hyperinsulinemia ensues well before actual glucose control is evident. Weight gain is a downward spiral and you are permanently stuck in the seasonal metabolic weight storage situation humans are well designed for.
GS: Thanks for talking to me about this. I am thinking about this very carefully. In some ways, I would like you to be right then I can carry on with what my career has followed so far, which is mostly environmental determinants of physical activity and obesity. But if the alternative hypothesis turns out then we have to rethink obesity prevention and treatment. At least that’s my view. If macronutrients, namely dietary carbs, overwhelm our biological capacity to deal with them in loads way beyond that which our ancestors (and therefore we) were designed for, then we should think carefully about that.
BS: THE HYPERCALORIC FOOD ENVIRONMENT (WHICH INCLUDES A HELL OF A LOT OF SIMPLE CARBS FOR SURE) IS WHAT OVERWHELMS US IN MY VIEW – SUGAR, FAT AND SALT MAKE FOOD MUCH EASIER TO OVERCONSUME. I DON’T THINK WE NEED TO HYPOTHESIZE SUCH FINE GRAINED MACRONUTRIENT EFFECTS
GS: I think we all agree that the industrial food culture and environment is toxic. Your argument has been that it’s too much food laying around, period. I disagree. That certainly doesn’t help. But simply processed carbs, especially sugar, are the active ingredient in this. Yes, taste added with fat and salt heightens palatability and promotes fatness. This is because it’s the carbs that stimulate the fat to be stored not burned. There are obviously issues about seed oils, trans fats etc as well. This is especially so in inflammation. Microbiome issues in absorption, gut permeability and inflammation are all mechanisms that are likely to be involved. Current literature puts dietary carbs, especially sugar and wheat (also highly processed oils), at the top of the list of suspects here, not saturated fat.
Again have a look at a later paper from your previous lab showing just how carbohydrate balance affects weight gain through subsequent food intake.
GS: I understand you think it almost certain I’m wrong, but that’s science and it might just be true.
BS: A HELL OF A LOT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE IN THIS SPACE BUT I AM NOT REALLY UP WITH THE PLAY – JUST STICKING TO OLD IDEAS
GS: I think we can easily both agree that nutritional science and metabolism isn’t fully understood yet. Where we seem to disagree is how that rolls into public health. I SAY WE NEED TO THINK MORE CAREFULLY BECAUSE CARBS AFFECT SOME PEOPLE VERY ADVERSELY. You say that it’s just the presence of food in general. There seems to be a gap there in what this will mean for the person on the street. I say we need to think about nutrient composition and how this affects different people.
GS: It wouldn’t be the first time science got something wrong. I’d also challenge you in the spirit of medical self experimentation to try a LCHF diet, with ad lib quantities, for three weeks. Control dietary carbs to 50g/day and judge your own metabolic changes. I did for sceptic reasons and decided it needed more investigation….just a thought.
BS: I THINK IF I PAID ATTENTION TO MY DIET IN REDUCING CARBS OR FAT OR ALCOHOL I WOULD BE BETTER OFF. IF YOU TAKE STUFF THAT REPRESENTS ABOUT 30 OR 40% OF OUR DIET (IE BREAD, PASTA, RICE, SPUDS, ROOT VEGE, BISCUITS, CAKES, PASTRIES ETC) THEN MY GUESS IS THAT I WOULD DEFINITELY LOSE WEIGHT AND I WOULD FEEL BETTER FOR HAVING DROPPED A FEW KG.
GS: Medicine has a long history of self experimentation. Are you remotely curious about the possible physiologies of carbs and how that might affect you personally? As well, I am saying remove these and replace them. I’m saying replace them with fat. It’s not deprivation and undereating. It’s tasty and fun. More importantly it sets humans into an energy homeostasis that allows control over eating. What I don’t think you are considering is that different dietary intakes affect satisfaction, satiation, and health in different ways because they affect energy homeostasis in different ways. LCHF is quite different and has a biological mechanism for being different to other diets. It also is not a fad diet as it is the only one based on evolution by natural selection as a principal of shaping our human genome’s response to different macronutrients.
BS: GREAT TALKING WITH YOU BUT I HAD BETTER GET OUT OF THIS ENJOYABLE STUFF AND GET BACK TO MY NHMRC REVIEWS
GS: Did you see the paper written about NHMRC writing and reviewing showing the cost to the Australian tax payer compared to the investment? Something like 600 person years spent grant writing alone in the last round!
Subsequent comment form Tim Noakes, after reading the correspondence